Fellow Letterboxers,
I want to take a moment to thank you all for participating in this Talk List.
I put this Listserv together on the Egroups service back in October of last
year. It has since become one of the most rewarding cyber experiences I've
encountered. I consider each and every one of you to be a friend.
I regret that the conversations on this list have from time to time gotten a
little too political for the average taste. I acknowledge that many of you
have spoken up (on and off the list) to express the fact that the Talk List's
association with various letterboxing websites was causing people to lose
interest in the list.
I feel it is now my responsibility to incorporate a few minor changes to
ensure the preservation of this Talk List. From this point on, postings to
this group may be subject to the approval of one or more moderators, in order
to discourage inflammatory, argumentative or controversial remarks. Previous
associations with existing websites are hereby dissolved. Debate over the
pros and cons of these unfortunate but neccessary changes is discouraged.
It's time to move onward.
IMPORTANT - Please Read
3 messages in this thread |
Started on 1999-05-22
[L-USA] IMPORTANT - Please Read
From: (Letterboxr@aol.com) |
Date: 1999-05-22 12:13:29 UTC-04:00
[L-USA] Re: IMPORTANT - Please Read
From: erik/susan davis (davisarc@wcvt.com) |
Date: 1999-05-22 23:35:15 UTC-07:00
To Mitch and the Letterbox Community:
I agree with Mitch about many of the sentiments expressed in his post
of this a.m.; still, I am very sad to see it come to this.
At the risk of boring some, I would like to explain the implications of
Mitch's proporal (i.e., an alternate North American Letterbox website).
A1) The Letterbox USA web site, if it continues as it is at present,
will remain a place where all Letterboxers can post clues and stamps, as
long as they are PHYSICALLY hosted on that server (Dan's). Dan has told
me and others that he considers those clues/stamps residing on his site
to be in "the public domain", and thus not able to be sold or otherwise
published for profit, presumably even by their authors.
A2) This also means that, as Dan has shared his password with a number
of you, those individuals have EDITING access to all clues on the site.
Concerns have been expressed about "security" of clues, that is, whether
they might be altered, either accidentally or intentionally, by some one
other than the author. There has been at least one example of this,
altho the change was quiclky remedied when the change was objected to.
A3) Clues which are physically located on other servers will not be
linked from the USA and State maps.
A4) Clues which are housed at the Letterbox site will likely continue
the graphic format as presently established, for a "unified" look.
........
B1) Altho I have not discussed Mitch's proposed site in any detail, I
assume that it will also be open to all Letterboxers, that clues and
images that reside within that page can, at the author's option, be
copyrighted if they feel so inclined.
B2) I don't know about the password/security issue, but I assume
that.....
.......B3) this web site (again, my assumption) will likely provide
links to other individuals' clue pages, housed on other servers, if so
desired. This should alleviate any security" concerns.
B4) I also assume that individuals who wish to design their own clue
page formats will be supported and encouraged to do so.
B5) An interesting permutation: will this (N.A.) site provide links into
the Letterbox USA site? To clue pages?
.......
There are pros and cons for either approach.
I am concerned about yet another division among us, and by confusion
between multiple Letterboxing sites.
I would hope that there is always one, centralized source for links to
letterbox clues, irrespective of which server they are on.
.....................
It sounds like Mitch is asking for a straw poll before he moves forward
with this. If you care to express an opinion, you might all ask
yourselves these questions:
Is the "free and open" "public domain" concept valid, or of ANY
importance to you, or do you wish to retain that "ownership" of your
clues to use at your discretion?
Are issues such as this, plus the security and the ability to design
your own, 'non-conforming' formats important enough to warrent dividing
the group?
Is it important to you to have the option to house your clue pages on
the server of your choice, and linked to a central page?
..........
Finally, I encourage all of you to remember all the hard work that has
been done by Dan, Mitch, Randy, Thom, Tom and many others. We all need
to strive to not "take sides", but hopefully participate in both sites
if it does come to that.
And, if anyone has an idea how we can salvage the current, one-site
model, please come forward. Please do not engage in any personally
critical attacks.
Thanks for your patience if you read this thru this far!
Erik Davis
Monkton, VT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
I agree with Mitch about many of the sentiments expressed in his post
of this a.m.; still, I am very sad to see it come to this.
At the risk of boring some, I would like to explain the implications of
Mitch's proporal (i.e., an alternate North American Letterbox website).
A1) The Letterbox USA web site, if it continues as it is at present,
will remain a place where all Letterboxers can post clues and stamps, as
long as they are PHYSICALLY hosted on that server (Dan's). Dan has told
me and others that he considers those clues/stamps residing on his site
to be in "the public domain", and thus not able to be sold or otherwise
published for profit, presumably even by their authors.
A2) This also means that, as Dan has shared his password with a number
of you, those individuals have EDITING access to all clues on the site.
Concerns have been expressed about "security" of clues, that is, whether
they might be altered, either accidentally or intentionally, by some one
other than the author. There has been at least one example of this,
altho the change was quiclky remedied when the change was objected to.
A3) Clues which are physically located on other servers will not be
linked from the USA and State maps.
A4) Clues which are housed at the Letterbox site will likely continue
the graphic format as presently established, for a "unified" look.
........
B1) Altho I have not discussed Mitch's proposed site in any detail, I
assume that it will also be open to all Letterboxers, that clues and
images that reside within that page can, at the author's option, be
copyrighted if they feel so inclined.
B2) I don't know about the password/security issue, but I assume
that.....
.......B3) this web site (again, my assumption) will likely provide
links to other individuals' clue pages, housed on other servers, if so
desired. This should alleviate any security" concerns.
B4) I also assume that individuals who wish to design their own clue
page formats will be supported and encouraged to do so.
B5) An interesting permutation: will this (N.A.) site provide links into
the Letterbox USA site? To clue pages?
.......
There are pros and cons for either approach.
I am concerned about yet another division among us, and by confusion
between multiple Letterboxing sites.
I would hope that there is always one, centralized source for links to
letterbox clues, irrespective of which server they are on.
.....................
It sounds like Mitch is asking for a straw poll before he moves forward
with this. If you care to express an opinion, you might all ask
yourselves these questions:
Is the "free and open" "public domain" concept valid, or of ANY
importance to you, or do you wish to retain that "ownership" of your
clues to use at your discretion?
Are issues such as this, plus the security and the ability to design
your own, 'non-conforming' formats important enough to warrent dividing
the group?
Is it important to you to have the option to house your clue pages on
the server of your choice, and linked to a central page?
..........
Finally, I encourage all of you to remember all the hard work that has
been done by Dan, Mitch, Randy, Thom, Tom and many others. We all need
to strive to not "take sides", but hopefully participate in both sites
if it does come to that.
And, if anyone has an idea how we can salvage the current, one-site
model, please come forward. Please do not engage in any personally
critical attacks.
Thanks for your patience if you read this thru this far!
Erik Davis
Monkton, VT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
[L-USA] Re: IMPORTANT - Please Read
From: Tom Cooch (tcooch@mail.sover.net) |
Date: 1999-05-23 08:12:09 UTC
Dear Erik and all,
Thank you, Erik, for your clear explanation of the major issues
involved in our current situation.
It is my belief that we will eventually, sooner rather than later,
need to take a different approach. We are growing as a group and will
continue to do so at an ever-increasing rate. Putting aside all
philosophical issues, I do not believe it will be possible to keep
all the clues/pages on one site.
Dan has been willing to share his site password with others, and I
applaud him for the trust that this shows. It does raise security
issues, however, which are a concern for some of us.
As we grow, Dan has several choices if he wants to keep all clues on
one site: He can delegate more responsibility to others, sharing the
password with more and more helpers; this will increase the risk that
clue pages may accidentally or intentionally be altered.
He can also try to restrict the work load involved in maintaining the
site, either by creating an automated clue submission form or by
otherwise restricting the format for clue pages. This is the approach
Dan has been taking to date.
I believe, however, that it will be impossible for one page
maintainer to keep pace with the exploding number of clues we are
hoping to see in the near future - no matter how restrictive the
format becomes. And I do not want to see it restricted. I want Randy
and others to be able to exercise their ingenuity to the max.
The only solution, in my opinion, is a decentralization of host
sites. There needs to be one central map that provides the links to
all states and all clues. If Dan can be the manager of this, that
would be fine with me. He is the one who has pioneered the whole map
approach and done so much of the work (along with Mitch, Erik, Randy,
Thom and others).
But the state maps and the clues do not need to be all located on the
same site. Many people can host these and the creating/editing
responsibilities shared. People who do not create their own clue
pages can have a choice of site and site editor. (I think most people
will choose to have Dan continue to do this, but Dan WILL very soon
reach a limit of the number of clues he can publish.)
As has been said already, this decentralized approach will solve the
security concern. It will also permit maximum flexibility in
formating clue pages. I suspect that there would continue to be a
very similar "look" to the majority of pages, but this is not a major
concern for me.
I do not see any other feasible solution to our growing needs.
Along with Erik, I encourage respectful dialogue among us all on this
issue. The issues are not so complex that the discussion needs to be
relegated to a technical or other subgroup of the list. We are all a
part of this.
Tom
Erik wrote....
> To Mitch and the Letterbox Community:
>
> I agree with Mitch about many of the sentiments expressed in his post
> of this a.m.; still, I am very sad to see it come to this.
>
> At the risk of boring some, I would like to explain the implications of
> Mitch's proporal (i.e., an alternate North American Letterbox website).
>
> A1) The Letterbox USA web site, if it continues as it is at present,
> will remain a place where all Letterboxers can post clues and stamps, as
> long as they are PHYSICALLY hosted on that server (Dan's). Dan has told
> me and others that he considers those clues/stamps residing on his site
> to be in "the public domain", and thus not able to be sold or otherwise
> published for profit, presumably even by their authors.
>
> A2) This also means that, as Dan has shared his password with a number
> of you, those individuals have EDITING access to all clues on the site.
> Concerns have been expressed about "security" of clues, that is, whether
> they might be altered, either accidentally or intentionally, by some one
> other than the author. There has been at least one example of this,
> altho the change was quiclky remedied when the change was objected to.
>
> A3) Clues which are physically located on other servers will not be
> linked from the USA and State maps.
>
> A4) Clues which are housed at the Letterbox site will likely continue
> the graphic format as presently established, for a "unified" look.
> ........
> B1) Altho I have not discussed Mitch's proposed site in any detail, I
> assume that it will also be open to all Letterboxers, that clues and
> images that reside within that page can, at the author's option, be
> copyrighted if they feel so inclined.
>
> B2) I don't know about the password/security issue, but I assume
> that.....
>
> .......B3) this web site (again, my assumption) will likely provide
> links to other individuals' clue pages, housed on other servers, if so
> desired. This should alleviate any security" concerns.
>
> B4) I also assume that individuals who wish to design their own clue
> page formats will be supported and encouraged to do so.
>
> B5) An interesting permutation: will this (N.A.) site provide links into
> the Letterbox USA site? To clue pages?
> .......
>
> There are pros and cons for either approach.
> I am concerned about yet another division among us, and by confusion
> between multiple Letterboxing sites.
>
> I would hope that there is always one, centralized source for links to
> letterbox clues, irrespective of which server they are on.
> .....................
>
> It sounds like Mitch is asking for a straw poll before he moves forward
> with this. If you care to express an opinion, you might all ask
> yourselves these questions:
>
> Is the "free and open" "public domain" concept valid, or of ANY
> importance to you, or do you wish to retain that "ownership" of your
> clues to use at your discretion?
>
> Are issues such as this, plus the security and the ability to design
> your own, 'non-conforming' formats important enough to warrent dividing
> the group?
>
> Is it important to you to have the option to house your clue pages on
> the server of your choice, and linked to a central page?
> ..........
>
> Finally, I encourage all of you to remember all the hard work that has
> been done by Dan, Mitch, Randy, Thom, Tom and many others. We all need
> to strive to not "take sides", but hopefully participate in both sites
> if it does come to that.
>
> And, if anyone has an idea how we can salvage the current, one-site
> model, please come forward. Please do not engage in any personally
> critical attacks.
>
> Thanks for your patience if you read this thru this far!
>
> Erik Davis
> Monkton, VT
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SIGN UP NOW FOR FREE HOME IMPROVEMENT HOW-TO'S
> Receive seasonal how-to's and climate-specific advice via e-mail.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/131
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
Tom Cooch
tcooch@sover.net
aka The Orient Express
Braintree, VT
"The game is afoot!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
Thank you, Erik, for your clear explanation of the major issues
involved in our current situation.
It is my belief that we will eventually, sooner rather than later,
need to take a different approach. We are growing as a group and will
continue to do so at an ever-increasing rate. Putting aside all
philosophical issues, I do not believe it will be possible to keep
all the clues/pages on one site.
Dan has been willing to share his site password with others, and I
applaud him for the trust that this shows. It does raise security
issues, however, which are a concern for some of us.
As we grow, Dan has several choices if he wants to keep all clues on
one site: He can delegate more responsibility to others, sharing the
password with more and more helpers; this will increase the risk that
clue pages may accidentally or intentionally be altered.
He can also try to restrict the work load involved in maintaining the
site, either by creating an automated clue submission form or by
otherwise restricting the format for clue pages. This is the approach
Dan has been taking to date.
I believe, however, that it will be impossible for one page
maintainer to keep pace with the exploding number of clues we are
hoping to see in the near future - no matter how restrictive the
format becomes. And I do not want to see it restricted. I want Randy
and others to be able to exercise their ingenuity to the max.
The only solution, in my opinion, is a decentralization of host
sites. There needs to be one central map that provides the links to
all states and all clues. If Dan can be the manager of this, that
would be fine with me. He is the one who has pioneered the whole map
approach and done so much of the work (along with Mitch, Erik, Randy,
Thom and others).
But the state maps and the clues do not need to be all located on the
same site. Many people can host these and the creating/editing
responsibilities shared. People who do not create their own clue
pages can have a choice of site and site editor. (I think most people
will choose to have Dan continue to do this, but Dan WILL very soon
reach a limit of the number of clues he can publish.)
As has been said already, this decentralized approach will solve the
security concern. It will also permit maximum flexibility in
formating clue pages. I suspect that there would continue to be a
very similar "look" to the majority of pages, but this is not a major
concern for me.
I do not see any other feasible solution to our growing needs.
Along with Erik, I encourage respectful dialogue among us all on this
issue. The issues are not so complex that the discussion needs to be
relegated to a technical or other subgroup of the list. We are all a
part of this.
Tom
Erik wrote....
> To Mitch and the Letterbox Community:
>
> I agree with Mitch about many of the sentiments expressed in his post
> of this a.m.; still, I am very sad to see it come to this.
>
> At the risk of boring some, I would like to explain the implications of
> Mitch's proporal (i.e., an alternate North American Letterbox website).
>
> A1) The Letterbox USA web site, if it continues as it is at present,
> will remain a place where all Letterboxers can post clues and stamps, as
> long as they are PHYSICALLY hosted on that server (Dan's). Dan has told
> me and others that he considers those clues/stamps residing on his site
> to be in "the public domain", and thus not able to be sold or otherwise
> published for profit, presumably even by their authors.
>
> A2) This also means that, as Dan has shared his password with a number
> of you, those individuals have EDITING access to all clues on the site.
> Concerns have been expressed about "security" of clues, that is, whether
> they might be altered, either accidentally or intentionally, by some one
> other than the author. There has been at least one example of this,
> altho the change was quiclky remedied when the change was objected to.
>
> A3) Clues which are physically located on other servers will not be
> linked from the USA and State maps.
>
> A4) Clues which are housed at the Letterbox site will likely continue
> the graphic format as presently established, for a "unified" look.
> ........
> B1) Altho I have not discussed Mitch's proposed site in any detail, I
> assume that it will also be open to all Letterboxers, that clues and
> images that reside within that page can, at the author's option, be
> copyrighted if they feel so inclined.
>
> B2) I don't know about the password/security issue, but I assume
> that.....
>
> .......B3) this web site (again, my assumption) will likely provide
> links to other individuals' clue pages, housed on other servers, if so
> desired. This should alleviate any security" concerns.
>
> B4) I also assume that individuals who wish to design their own clue
> page formats will be supported and encouraged to do so.
>
> B5) An interesting permutation: will this (N.A.) site provide links into
> the Letterbox USA site? To clue pages?
> .......
>
> There are pros and cons for either approach.
> I am concerned about yet another division among us, and by confusion
> between multiple Letterboxing sites.
>
> I would hope that there is always one, centralized source for links to
> letterbox clues, irrespective of which server they are on.
> .....................
>
> It sounds like Mitch is asking for a straw poll before he moves forward
> with this. If you care to express an opinion, you might all ask
> yourselves these questions:
>
> Is the "free and open" "public domain" concept valid, or of ANY
> importance to you, or do you wish to retain that "ownership" of your
> clues to use at your discretion?
>
> Are issues such as this, plus the security and the ability to design
> your own, 'non-conforming' formats important enough to warrent dividing
> the group?
>
> Is it important to you to have the option to house your clue pages on
> the server of your choice, and linked to a central page?
> ..........
>
> Finally, I encourage all of you to remember all the hard work that has
> been done by Dan, Mitch, Randy, Thom, Tom and many others. We all need
> to strive to not "take sides", but hopefully participate in both sites
> if it does come to that.
>
> And, if anyone has an idea how we can salvage the current, one-site
> model, please come forward. Please do not engage in any personally
> critical attacks.
>
> Thanks for your patience if you read this thru this far!
>
> Erik Davis
> Monkton, VT
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SIGN UP NOW FOR FREE HOME IMPROVEMENT HOW-TO'S
> Receive seasonal how-to's and climate-specific advice via e-mail.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/131
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
Tom Cooch
tcooch@sover.net
aka The Orient Express
Braintree, VT
"The game is afoot!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications